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Canine Parvovirus
Sent to Dog Experts January 19 06:55 PM

About two months ago I lost two beautiful Pomeranian boys to parvovirus. They were both around 12 weeks old when the first one started to show signs (about 12 days after I got them) and a long heartbreaking battle continued for about 7 days as we tried to save them. They both sadly past away while being treated at Tufts University in Mass. They both had their 1st shots (Vanguard 5 - not the high titer one) at 8 weeks old and were only days away from their 12th week one. The boys never left the house after we got them and suspect that they caught it from the vet's office (check-up on 1st and 3rd day that we got them) or from us when we visited pet stores for supplies and carried it home on our shoes or clothes. They will both be missed greatly. The one thing that does not fit completely is that they both died of cardiac arrest while being handled for blood samples? If someone could shed some light on that, we would be grateful.

But, the real question we have at this point is how do we prevent this from happening again. We plan to get to new puppies, but couldn't live with ourselves if we put their lives in jeopardy. We have done countless hours of research and have talk to many vets, but everyone seems to contradict each other or has a slightly different view. The main suggestions seem to be: 1) get an older dog 2) wait one month (some say 3 months, others say 1 year) 3) clean everything with bleach (impossible). No one told us that the bleach is useless if it is not in contact with the virus for 10 minutes and no organic matter is around. And, as far as the yard where they went to the bathroom, forget it. It can live for a year outside!! Why can it live outside so long, but not in the house? Because you clean the house often? This can't be true because you can't clean everything. Let's face it, we are talking about a virus.

Well this is what we have decided to do unless someone can suggest a better way:

First, we are waiting until the puppies are 14 weeks old (we want to be part of the time between 8 and 16 weeks for their development and socialization).

Second, we will request that the breeder give a "High Titer" vaccine at 12 weeks (Our breeder by the way gives 1/2 vaccines and doesn't trust the new High Titers yet - we are after all talking about a dog that weighs only 1 and 3/4 pounds). Any thoughts on that??

Third, before we take them home we will have Titers run for parvo antibodies. Is this absolute if their titers are high enough? In other words, if a dog has antibodies for parvo (shown by the titer test) are they immune from the virus 100% or there about?

Forth, we plan to clean as much as possible with 1:30 bleach (for 10 minutes). This we feel is a losing battle because we can not bleach everything. We will also use "Virkon S" (for 10 minutes) where we can't bleach and as a back up in the areas that we can Bleach.

If anyone could possible help us and give us some solid answers to this whole mess, we would be grateful.

Thank you in advance!!

Customer (name blocked for privacy)
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January 19 7:11 PM (7 minutes and 14 seconds later)
         
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January 19 11:34 PM (4 hours and 22 minutes and 45 seconds later)
         
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January 20 7:08 AM (7 hours and 33 minutes and 47 seconds later)
         
Our breeder has offered to replace our little guys and yes we would like to stay with the same breed. We plan to get the puppies in the begining of March. That will put us at about 3 months after our boys passed away.
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January 20 8:56 AM (1 hour and 48 minutes and 10 seconds later)
         
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January 20 9:40 AM (44 minutes and 13 seconds later)
         
That is what we first suspected - that it came from the breeder. But, wouldn't the breeder have a bunch of sick or dead dogs if the parvo was at his house? At the time we picked up our boys he had about 10 puppies. Also, both our boys had different Sire and Dam. We pick different litters and passed on one boys brother and the other's sister. I was told that both were placed with good homes. Maybe this isn't the truth, but it would be hard for me to find out. The breeder has been breeding for 30 years and is well know throughout the country.

Your comments about the bitch are well taken. He does breed a lot and I would hope he isn't only concerned with $$.

What about the titer test? If the titers are tested at 14 weeks and are high enough, are they immune from parvo that may still be in our house?

What do you think about the "High titer" vaccines and the fact that he gives 1/2 shots? I was told that shots should not 1/2ed by one Vet and another told me that even though he didn't use the "high titer" vaccine which could override maternal antibodies sooner (80 to 90% at 12 weeks of age), he still used a modified live virus that needs to replicate in order to work. This means that a 1/2 shot should make no difference.

I guess the only way we can feel comfortable if you agree that a high titer test = immunity?

P.S. I don't know how this works, but I want to accept your answers. Do I accept now or when we are done with our comments?

Thank you again for your answers, they make a lot of sense.
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January 20 11:51 AM (2 hours and 10 minutes and 14 seconds later)
         
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You had a couple real concerns and I am going to be blunt.
For veterinarians, dealing with breeders is one of our least favorite things to do...It is one of those issues of "I have been doing this for 30 years and I know what I am doing"...well, in my opinion, not really.

1. 1/2 doses: It is off label use to give 1/2 a vaccine. The vaccines are NOT weight dependent. When they were manufactured and tested for effective doses...it is not as if they only used 100lb dogs. A 1/2 dose is not acceptable by the company either and holds NO backing for efficacy.   I vaccinate hundreds of puppies less than 2lbs. the vaccine is the vaccine...do it a full dose or not at all!! There is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence that puppies are protected with 1/2 a dose...
2. Titers: A titer at the completion of your puppies vaccine protocal to ensure that full coverage is acheived (16-20wks of age) can be done. Before that, the results are questionable. Everything rides on maternal antibodies...how much they got as they nursed, how well vaccinated is the mother, and when the antibodies go down and the vaccine is present. Unfortunately we don't know when puppies maternal antibodies go down and the vaccine steps in...that is why we do a series of parvo vaccines.
3. If you read the fine print, the manufacturers of vaccines do not guarantee protection of viruses with their vaccine until a puppy is 12 weeks or older...that is because of the maternal antibodies. I think you could go two ways with these puppies.
     a. You can take them at 8 weeks old; keep inside and train with peepee pads; have your vet immediately start your puppies on FULL vaccine protocals and hopefully the maternal antibodies have been high enough to protect them until then.
     b. Leave them with the breeder but ask that your breeder for your puppies give the full vaccine at 8 and 12 weeks (if he argues, I don't know how well I would trust him to do it) ...then take home at 14 weeks. The titer is not something I would hang my hat on...repeat a parvo vaccine at 16 weeks and maybe then titer...if you still feel like it.


As far as cleaning, the viral cleaner is good and the cleaning as described by the other specialist is effective as well. There was shedding in the house with your sick puppies...so just do the best you can, but I very much feel it was from the breeders.

Now, why did yours get it and not the others? Well you don't know for sure that they didn't.
Try not to pick the smallest puppies...many people want the smallest or runts...and there is a reason they are the smallest...and it will always come back and haunt you. Pick something in the middle...a puppy that was big enough to get regular feedings on the mom.

Hope this helps.

Dr.Vamvakias


Dr. D.A. Vamvakias
Veterinarian
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